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Thread: Verbal Commands

  1. #1

    Verbal Commands

    my theory is if you can hit someone anywhere with even a little measly .22 or .25 or .32 there is a good chance they are going to change their mind and not want to bother you anymore!

  2. #2
    Senior Member norahc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by milesman View Post
    my theory is if you can hit someone anywhere with even a little measly .22 or .25 or .32 there is a good chance they are going to change their mind and not want to bother you anymore!
    Provided they're not doped up. But if they were really going to change their mind, wouldn't they have done it when you produced the firearm and gave the verbal command to stop?
    "Some battles are fought for principle and some battles are fought for dollars. When you fight for principles you fight until hell freezes over and then you fight on the ice." - Spokane Councilman Steve Salvatori

  3. #3
    when there was reason to pull my gun out there would be no verbal commands

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    Senior Member GlassWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by milesman View Post
    my theory is if you can hit someone anywhere with even a little measly .22 or .25 or .32 there is a good chance they are going to change their mind and not want to bother you anymore!
    The problem with that theory is the reality of someone hopped up on drugs like meth, or even adrenaline and rage. You want something that's going to penetrate heavy and layered clothing, and stop a threat. You also want something with enough velocity and penetraction and expansion to do things like shatter bone if you aim for the pelvic region to stop a person charging at you, or aim for high center of mass if you go that route. I don't feel a .380 or smaller has that power. I do believe that anything 9mm or larger, however, does.
    I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.
    Robert A. Heinlein

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    Senior Member norahc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by milesman View Post
    when there was reason to pull my gun out there would be no verbal commands
    Why not? A simple yell of "STOP!" before you pull the trigger would go a long way in helping you with the legal aftermath.
    "Some battles are fought for principle and some battles are fought for dollars. When you fight for principles you fight until hell freezes over and then you fight on the ice." - Spokane Councilman Steve Salvatori

  6. #6
    granted there's endless possible scenarios but as if you or a family members life is threatened there's no requirement for negotiation and unwise for several reasons to draw for anything less unless of coarse you have the advantage of being a leo.
    Last edited by milesman; 10-20-2012 at 09:49 PM.

  7. #7
    Senior Member norahc's Avatar
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    Re: 9mm or 40 S&W

    Quote Originally Posted by milesman View Post
    granted there's endless possible scenarios but as if you or a family members life is threatened there's no requirement for negotiation and unwise for several reasons to draw for anything less unless of coarse you have the advantage of being a leo.
    So what you are saying is that if you feel the need to draw your weapon in self defense, you are just going to pull the trigger? You wouldn't give a simple verbal command of "Stop!" with your weapon drawn in a last ditch attempt to stop the attack without using lethal force?

    Now consider the aftermath of not giving that command as compared to yelling stop before you pull the trigger. Which method tells the witnesses, some of whom you may not even be aware of at the moment, that your decision to pull the trigger is an absolute last resort? Which method tells those same witnesses that you are the victim and not just some guy shooting another person without provocation? Which method will look better in front of a jury?

    You are right in that there is no requirement for the verbal command aspect, but I am wondering why you think it would not be a good idea to always issue one when you draw the weapon.

    Sent from my SCH-I800 using Tapatalk 2
    "Some battles are fought for principle and some battles are fought for dollars. When you fight for principles you fight until hell freezes over and then you fight on the ice." - Spokane Councilman Steve Salvatori

  8. #8
    Senior Member GlassWolf's Avatar
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    I was trained not to draw a handgun unless my intention is to pull the trigger the moment I acquire my sight picture. The problem with a verbal warning is this:
    1. you give your aggressor the information that you're armed, which allows him to switch tactics to respond, with the possible outcome of disarming, or even killing you with his own weapon if he too, is armed.
    2. it takes precious time, and most shootings will happen within 3, 5, or 7 yards, which is too close to get into a hand to hand struggle with an opponent. You've giving him the opportunity to react, not just surrender.
    3. What if he DOES surrender? Do you have cuffs with you? Are you trained in how to handle a person now under your control, and thereby your responsibility? How do you keep him secured, and get to the rest of your family, or to the phone to call 911, or get help?
    4. Here's the worst one: What if he does stop, you hold him at gunpoint, and he can draw a concealed weapon of his own, and kill you before you can react?
    Don't say it can't happen. Universities have done studies proving it can. The time it takes you to see his movement, orient yourself to the situation, decide you need to respond, and act on that is longer than it takes someone who's already decided his course of action, and needs only to act on it. Look into something called the "OODA loop" thought process.

    Working in LE and Security, we have a partner. We have backup with a radio call from our shoulder. We have advanced training in hand to hand combat and weapons training. Most civilians don't have any of this. Police know how to take a suspect into custody and restrain them, and have different requirements for doing so than you or I do. The fact is that if you're going to draw a gun, the law usually requires that you be in fear for your life, your safety from grievous bodily harm, or with alter ego defenses where allowed, that someone else is in fear, and you step in on their behalf. If that is indeed the case, then your only responsibility is to stop the threat. At this point, talking someone down has failed, and de-escalation has failed. All other means of getting out of the situation you're in have failed, and you're left with NO other choice. The time for talking it out over a cup of tea is gone.

    Understand that if someone is executing a home invasion, or trying to mug you in a dark parkinglot at knifepoint, etc.. chances are the person will be close enough to look them in the eyes. You need to respond quickly, and decisively. Every thought, every movement you make is vital and pivotal to your survival. I pray neither you or I ever has to face that situation.
    I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.
    Robert A. Heinlein

  9. #9
    Senior Member norahc's Avatar
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    Re: 9mm or 40 S&W

    I am familiar with the OODA thought process, but it in no way prevents the issuance of verbal commands. Nor does a verbal command add more time to the process or allow an attacker to suddenly change tactics to avoid your lethal force response, unless you give it before you draw your weapon. If you issue it as you are obtaining your sight picture he will not have any additional time or resources to counter it.

    What is the purpose of you drawing your weapon in a defensive situation? You want to stop the threat to you. If a verbal command associated with the presence of your firearm stops the threat, you are no longer justified in pulling the trigger. Remember that there is information out there showing that a CHL holder drawing his weapon is enough to stop the threat more times than there are CHL shootings.

    In addition, if your attacker does surrender and you need to "keep him covered until the police arrive", then you need to place yourself in a position that you can do so without exposing yourself to any possible counter attack from him. Or you can disengage and leave the area, depending upon the circumstances.

    I will concede the point that verbal commands may not be appropiate in all situations, but the majority of the time they can be employed in conjunction with drawing your weapon.

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    Last edited by norahc; 10-21-2012 at 10:16 AM.
    "Some battles are fought for principle and some battles are fought for dollars. When you fight for principles you fight until hell freezes over and then you fight on the ice." - Spokane Councilman Steve Salvatori

  10. #10
    Senior Member GlassWolf's Avatar
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    You tell the person to stop, and that you feel threatened before you feel the need to draw your weapon. That's an attempt to de-escalate or defuse the situation, and indicate your feeling of a threat. If they refuse to cease their advancement, and you don't feel you have any other option, then you draw your weapon to USE it, not to wave it around and try to threaten them with it. That's how you get killed.
    I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.
    Robert A. Heinlein

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