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milesman
10-20-2012, 11:10 AM
my theory is if you can hit someone anywhere with even a little measly .22 or .25 or .32 there is a good chance they are going to change their mind and not want to bother you anymore!

norahc
10-20-2012, 11:35 AM
my theory is if you can hit someone anywhere with even a little measly .22 or .25 or .32 there is a good chance they are going to change their mind and not want to bother you anymore!

Provided they're not doped up. But if they were really going to change their mind, wouldn't they have done it when you produced the firearm and gave the verbal command to stop?

milesman
10-20-2012, 02:07 PM
when there was reason to pull my gun out there would be no verbal commands

GlassWolf
10-20-2012, 03:01 PM
my theory is if you can hit someone anywhere with even a little measly .22 or .25 or .32 there is a good chance they are going to change their mind and not want to bother you anymore!

The problem with that theory is the reality of someone hopped up on drugs like meth, or even adrenaline and rage. You want something that's going to penetrate heavy and layered clothing, and stop a threat. You also want something with enough velocity and penetraction and expansion to do things like shatter bone if you aim for the pelvic region to stop a person charging at you, or aim for high center of mass if you go that route. I don't feel a .380 or smaller has that power. I do believe that anything 9mm or larger, however, does.

norahc
10-20-2012, 03:15 PM
when there was reason to pull my gun out there would be no verbal commands

Why not? A simple yell of "STOP!" before you pull the trigger would go a long way in helping you with the legal aftermath.

milesman
10-20-2012, 08:56 PM
granted there's endless possible scenarios but as if you or a family members life is threatened there's no requirement for negotiation and unwise for several reasons to draw for anything less unless of coarse you have the advantage of being a leo.

norahc
10-21-2012, 01:00 AM
granted there's endless possible scenarios but as if you or a family members life is threatened there's no requirement for negotiation and unwise for several reasons to draw for anything less unless of coarse you have the advantage of being a leo.

So what you are saying is that if you feel the need to draw your weapon in self defense, you are just going to pull the trigger? You wouldn't give a simple verbal command of "Stop!" with your weapon drawn in a last ditch attempt to stop the attack without using lethal force?

Now consider the aftermath of not giving that command as compared to yelling stop before you pull the trigger. Which method tells the witnesses, some of whom you may not even be aware of at the moment, that your decision to pull the trigger is an absolute last resort? Which method tells those same witnesses that you are the victim and not just some guy shooting another person without provocation? Which method will look better in front of a jury?

You are right in that there is no requirement for the verbal command aspect, but I am wondering why you think it would not be a good idea to always issue one when you draw the weapon.

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GlassWolf
10-21-2012, 08:38 AM
I was trained not to draw a handgun unless my intention is to pull the trigger the moment I acquire my sight picture. The problem with a verbal warning is this:
1. you give your aggressor the information that you're armed, which allows him to switch tactics to respond, with the possible outcome of disarming, or even killing you with his own weapon if he too, is armed.
2. it takes precious time, and most shootings will happen within 3, 5, or 7 yards, which is too close to get into a hand to hand struggle with an opponent. You've giving him the opportunity to react, not just surrender.
3. What if he DOES surrender? Do you have cuffs with you? Are you trained in how to handle a person now under your control, and thereby your responsibility? How do you keep him secured, and get to the rest of your family, or to the phone to call 911, or get help?
4. Here's the worst one: What if he does stop, you hold him at gunpoint, and he can draw a concealed weapon of his own, and kill you before you can react?
Don't say it can't happen. Universities have done studies proving it can. The time it takes you to see his movement, orient yourself to the situation, decide you need to respond, and act on that is longer than it takes someone who's already decided his course of action, and needs only to act on it. Look into something called the "OODA loop" thought process.

Working in LE and Security, we have a partner. We have backup with a radio call from our shoulder. We have advanced training in hand to hand combat and weapons training. Most civilians don't have any of this. Police know how to take a suspect into custody and restrain them, and have different requirements for doing so than you or I do. The fact is that if you're going to draw a gun, the law usually requires that you be in fear for your life, your safety from grievous bodily harm, or with alter ego defenses where allowed, that someone else is in fear, and you step in on their behalf. If that is indeed the case, then your only responsibility is to stop the threat. At this point, talking someone down has failed, and de-escalation has failed. All other means of getting out of the situation you're in have failed, and you're left with NO other choice. The time for talking it out over a cup of tea is gone.

Understand that if someone is executing a home invasion, or trying to mug you in a dark parkinglot at knifepoint, etc.. chances are the person will be close enough to look them in the eyes. You need to respond quickly, and decisively. Every thought, every movement you make is vital and pivotal to your survival. I pray neither you or I ever has to face that situation.

norahc
10-21-2012, 10:06 AM
I am familiar with the OODA thought process, but it in no way prevents the issuance of verbal commands. Nor does a verbal command add more time to the process or allow an attacker to suddenly change tactics to avoid your lethal force response, unless you give it before you draw your weapon. If you issue it as you are obtaining your sight picture he will not have any additional time or resources to counter it.

What is the purpose of you drawing your weapon in a defensive situation? You want to stop the threat to you. If a verbal command associated with the presence of your firearm stops the threat, you are no longer justified in pulling the trigger. Remember that there is information out there showing that a CHL holder drawing his weapon is enough to stop the threat more times than there are CHL shootings.

In addition, if your attacker does surrender and you need to "keep him covered until the police arrive", then you need to place yourself in a position that you can do so without exposing yourself to any possible counter attack from him. Or you can disengage and leave the area, depending upon the circumstances.

I will concede the point that verbal commands may not be appropiate in all situations, but the majority of the time they can be employed in conjunction with drawing your weapon.

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GlassWolf
10-21-2012, 05:38 PM
You tell the person to stop, and that you feel threatened before you feel the need to draw your weapon. That's an attempt to de-escalate or defuse the situation, and indicate your feeling of a threat. If they refuse to cease their advancement, and you don't feel you have any other option, then you draw your weapon to USE it, not to wave it around and try to threaten them with it. That's how you get killed.

norahc
10-21-2012, 06:07 PM
You tell the person to stop, and that you feel threatened before you feel the need to draw your weapon. That's an attempt to de-escalate or defuse the situation, and indicate your feeling of a threat. If they refuse to cease their advancement, and you don't feel you have any other option, then you draw your weapon to USE it, not to wave it around and try to threaten them with it. That's how you get killed.

Agreed...to a point. However, to say that the moment you are going to draw your weapon means that you will automatically pull the trigger when the sights are lined up ignores the reality of an extremely fluid and dynamic situation. There's a reason that TAP-RACK-BANG has been changed, and it has to do with the same mindset you are presenting here. If you are justified in pulling your weapon, it does not mean that in every case you are justified in pulling the trigger. As an example only, let's look at the following scenario:
You are threatened to the point that you feel justified in drawing your weapon. In the roughly two seconds it takes you to draw your weapon, the attack stops and the perpetrator turns to flee. By your admitted mindset of "you draw your weapon to USE it", are you saying you would pull the trigger anyway? Since your attacker was already turning to disengage, you end up shooting him in the back. Just for discussion's sake, let's say a witness sees the shooting. What do you think they would tell the police, the district attorney, and the jury?

"Well, I saw GlassWolf pull out his gun and shoot the deceased in the back for no apparent reason."
"Did GlassWolf say anything to the deceased before pulling the trigger?"
"No."
Think that would bode well for you in court?

I am in no way advocating threatening anybody with a gun. If you feel the need to draw it, you damn well better be ready to use it. I am saying that it better be your last resort, and you need to be able to prove to everyone that you did everything you reasonably could to avoid pulling the trigger. I fail to see how yelling "STOP" one last time as you are bring the weapon up to obtain your sight picture will in any way add more time or increase any risk to you, whereas it could definitely help you with the legal aftermath of the incident.

Obviously, if you are in a point shooting, or shooting from retention scenario, it is going to be a different situation.

GlassWolf
10-22-2012, 05:34 AM
If I feel threatened enough to draw, it's because I fear for my life. I can take a punch or two. It'd take more than that to threaten my life. If I'm in the state or situation that I've decided to draw my weapon, there's little to no chance that the badguy is just going to "change his mind" spin on his heels and walk off. If he changes his presentation angle as I'm drawing, how do I know he's leaving? How do I know he isn't changing his angle of attack, or reaching for a weapon behind his back? Yes, if I'm threatened enough to draw, the probability is almost guaranteed that I'm going to shoot. The one thing that comes to mind that could present your above mentioned situation though, would be if I lose my clear line of fire due to something like a friendly falling/stepping/being thrown between the target and myself, or something along those lines. The problem is that most of your examples woould take more time to play out than most shootings do. When you come to the point that you need to draw your weapon, statistics have shown that the entire encounter is usually over in 3 to 7 seconds total; about the same number of seconds as yards distance bbetween you and your attacker in most cases. (stats provided by police studies of defensive shooting incidents)

I'm not saying it's impossible for a situation to occur wherein you draw and don't fire your weapon, but your mindset should be a positive one, as in you plan to pull the trigger, you're ready to do so, you're prepared for the consequences of that action, etc.. before you ever reach for the gun. These are things you should have considered before you even chose to carry. This goes back to the whole thing about telling yourself things in a positive frame to accomplish something.. as in "I will go to the store" or "I will remember my keys when I leave the house" instead of saying to yourself "dpn't forget my keys." The way you think about things can affect the outcome, when your mind is the deciding factor. You should continually prepare both your mind and your body. James Yeager put it well when he said, "Your responsibility to be prepared for the fight never ends."

By the way, I think we've wandered quite a way off topic here.

MP Gunther
10-22-2012, 08:43 PM
EXCELLENT arguements

Iwap_Evile
10-22-2012, 09:43 PM
I think that in a situation where you are drawing your weapon to defend yourself you lose fine motor skills and will do what you trained to do. I train to draw my weapon, aim and fire. If I am going to use verbal commands before firing I would have to include those commands in my training as in stressful situations motor skills and thought go out the widow and training and muscle memory takeover. I have not thought about using any type of command. I will have to think about it and if I decide to use verbal commands I will include them in my training

norahc
10-22-2012, 09:46 PM
The YankeeMarshall also comments on the "if I draw, I'm going to shoot" mentality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4voxtmsu9o

I guess my biggest issue is the belief that if you are going to draw, you are ALWAYS going to shoot. That mentality can land you in court and jail. Each situation is different, so our actions must be tailored to meet the circumstances of the current situation. The always and never mentality will get you in trouble, guaranteed.

Agreed, we've wandered way off topic. Maybe one of the mods can split these posts out into their own thread, since it seems like a worthwhile discussion.

E1kinobi
10-22-2012, 11:19 PM
Yelling a verbal command to an attacker to stop or drop his weapon is always a good thing especially for a self defense shooter as it could be a strong point of proof should one find him or herself in front of a judge and jury. By using verbal commands against an attacker you can argue (or your lawyer) that you feared for your life and was EVEN giving the attacker a fair warning to stop his assault but was not sucessful so you are compeled to use leathal force. But when doing so made sure you pull your weapon out and made clear to your assailant that you want him or her to stop the threat. Of course its better off if someone see and hear the entire incident so that you can later on use them as witness for your defense. A video tape recording on most places are also a great tool in helping one to strenghten his or her defense in this case. But the most important thing on this scenario is keeping a safe distance between you and the attacker. When facing multiple attacker never allow them to get behind you. Just my two cents